I look up and see a girl probably in her twenties smiling at me and right at that moment, I knew she was a little off. She wasn't normal and I could see it and I felt something strange going to take place.
Yesterday afternoon, I was sitting at a train station in Oceanside after taking the Coaster from Old Town there. The Coaster ride was a very interesting ride. It turns out that I and two other people from Point Loma were taking the Coaster this day and we were all going to Oceanside. None of us knew the others were going and I didn't even know one of the girls that I rode with was from Oceanside but nonetheless, we were all going to ride the train together. Definitely a God thing. I'm sure we were all prepared for a train ride alone but we were brought together instead. Small world. Big God.
I had a good time on the Coaster with my old friend and my new friend and after we got off the Coaster we all parted ways. I had to take another train, the Sprinter, over near my house. I sat down at a bench to wait for the Sprinter to arrive and that's where I'll pick up the story again.
"Yeah. It is."
"That's cool. I play bass. What type of music do you like to play?"
"I really only play worship music. I work at a church."
"Oh, so you're a Christian?"
"Yes."
She smiled oddly. There was something in her eyes that I could read that made me think she wasn't well.
I knew at this point that I wasn't in for a normal relaxing train ride. My mind was immediately led to Ephesians 6:11-12
"Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places"
I wasn't going to be wrestling with this girl. There was something inside of her that was not right. I just knew it.
She replied, "That's cool. I believe in Jesus. But I'm not a Christian."
"Oh? How does that work?"
I can't recall exactly what she said here, but she went on to mention that she believed in the other people like Buddha and Mohammed, reasoning that Jesus is just one of many of God's chosen people.
"How did you reach those conclusions?"
She replied, once again with an odd smile, "God told me. I pray to Him all the time. I speak directly to Him."
"Oh really? God wouldn't tell you all that."
Then I continued to speak as God brought me words about how Jesus is the only one of those people who is truly the Son of God. The Bible also came up and she talked about how she doesn't believe in all the Bible because it's written by man. I don't remember exactly what was said after that but I knew that God was taking over and I was in for an interesting ride.
The Sprinter arrived and she turned to see it and then looked back at me and said, "Have a nice day!" with the same smile that she had had from the beginning.
She boarded the train as did I and God led me to sit in the same section as her but not too close. I sat for a while and prayed about what I should do and God directed me towards Scripture. Specifically, to the book of Romans. I'm not exactly sure why that book but what I do know is that God spoke to me in that moment and told me that I needed to pass on His message to her. He wanted me to tell her that she was being tricked by many evil spirits and to read the book of Romans. I knew that wouldn't be an easy thing to say to someone and how would I bring that up?
No sooner than I had thought about that, she came and sat a row across from me and wanted to keep talking. I knew I had to tell her that message but God said wait until you get off the train. She tried to make small talk with me and asked me my name. Her's was Jessica. She tried to give me a CS Lewis book claiming that God told her to give it to me and I hesitantly accepted it.
Seconds later, a man who stenched of alcohol came on the train and sat directly beside me. Now, I had my Bible in my lap from when I was looking up Scripture to show Jessica and this saw the Bible.
"You have your sword! And [pointing to my guitar] the axe!"
He was delusional and not right in the head either. That was obvious. He started to rant about random things and asked me 4 different times, "How are you doing my brother?" He also had a glazed look in his eyes and I knew it was more than him simply being drunk. And I knew that these two people weren't just randomly placed in my life. I just didn't know what to do. I was physically corned because I was sitting in a window seat. But I wasn't afraid, I knew God was with me in these moments.
Jessica asked the drunk man his name and he tried to tell me his name was Artemis something at one point and then Lazareth at another point. Then I think he pulled out an ID that said he was mentally handicapped I believe. His name was Tom Warner.
So there I was, with Tom and Jessica on the train and my stop was coming up soon. My words now, I'm sure, aren't adequately describing what I was going through at the time. I really believe that I was sensing that I was "wrestling" with "spiritual forces of evil" and that Satan had Jessica and Tom in a bind of which they could not set themselves free.
My stop arrived and I knew I had one last moment to say something. I gathered my things and then boldly declared as if I was talking directly to their souls which appeared to contain evil spirits.
I spoke with authority and conviction; my speech was direct, blunt, and cutting in this moment. They were not my words. I didn't think them. They just came out. And I looked them directly in the eyes and I felt this compassion running through me as words came to my lips. I was speaking with love because I had been given a compassion for their souls.
"I want you both to listen to me. You [pointing to Jessica], you are being tricked by many evil spirits. Jesus is the only way. You need to read the book of Romans and learn to believe it. You're being tricked by many evil spirits. And you, [now point at Tom] you are an alcoholic. That is sinful. Seek help and actually keep with it. You need help. I'll pray for both of you."
Then I left the train and continued to pray. I have no idea if my words will do something in either of their lives or if my words will enable them to be set free. I have no idea what they would have talked about once I left or any clue what their interaction would be. All I know is that I was obedient.
I am now reminded of something my youth pastor once preached, "God is more concerned with your obedience that your impact." It doesn't matter what takes place now as much as it matters that I was responsive to His Spirit's leading. I don't know what exactly took place yesterday evening on that train, but I know I did what I was supposed to do.
That is all.
The Bible is written by man. It also says that man is sinful in nature, imperfect, and fallible. Therefore, the Bible, as man's scripture, would be fallible as well, no?
ReplyDeleteThe words of the Bible are written by righteous men who God inspired to write them. Man is not the creator of the Bible, just simply God's secretary to write down what He told them to write. Its words are perfect and infallible because God is perfect and infallible.
ReplyDeleteSigned Me, Anonymous
I admire your passion, but don't forget people simply have different beliefs. People on the other side of the spectrum are just as faithful as you and claim that their ways are the only ways as well, which therefore means that your way isn't the only way.
ReplyDeleteYou should recognize that it's not your place to judge them, and I'm sure you don't intend to, but it would come off that way for many people.
Oh goodness, so many Anonymouses.
ReplyDelete1) I see your point. My only response would have to be 2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness.
2) Yes.
3) I am very aware that people simply have different beliefs. Her claiming that God told her directly that there are multiple ways to Heaven when He said in His Word that there is one way, Jesus who said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to Father but by me." And in this instance, I wouldn't say she was faithful in what she was believing, because she didn't know what she believed. In addition, she was saying that she believes that we all are gods and godesses and that God isn't the only God while once again, God revealed through His word that He is the one and only God. And just because there are other faith systems, it doesn't create a "therefore" they are correct way.
I know it's not my place to judge them and I didn't judge them. I simply was obedient. It's God's place to judge, I let Him do the judging and I did the speaking.
Thank you for your feedback.
All scripture is God-breathed? So, when the Bible says that women may not teach and have authority over men, that is the will of God? Historically, scripture has been a heck of a way to manipulate people, too. Timothy forgot about that part.
ReplyDelete@ Anonymous #2/Orin Isn't it just as likely that Satan or an evil spirit spoke to man as he wrote the bible in order to deceive him and lead him into darkness?
As a third point of inquiry, why would God bother with scripture to reveal himself to man, when historically an overwhelming majority of the world's population has been utterly illiterate? If he is almighty, then why would he choose what is perhaps the most inefficient medium conceivable to give man the free gift of salvation? For that matter, why did he only reveal himself to one people, in one language, thereby delaying the salvation of, once again, an overwhelming majority of Earth?
P.S.: I'm not arguing. I'm having a spiritual crisis, and as a creature of reason, I've always felt that questions are the best ways to answers.
In the Hindu tradition, we are taught that we are all gods and goddesses, with personal deity, because Brahma is the universe. That's right. God, in his infinite wisdom, turned himself into the universe. Forces of deception, however, block us from Atman- out true spiritual Self- therein preventing our true relationship with the Ultimate Reality.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand why you would think this is such an absurd idea; it has its own theological grounding. Unless, of course, you echo the sentiments of Reginald Heber's classic hymn, "From Greenland's Icy Mountains," in believing that the 'heathen in his blindness bows down to wood and stone.'
I said therefore your way isn't the only way, not that yours or other ways are correct. You cannot claim that she didn't know what she believed in, because that is totally hers and hers alone.
ReplyDeleteObedience isn't an excuse for overstepping. Neither is it an excuse to enforce dominance of one god, or even a single perspective of the same god. It is up to a person whether he or she believes in whatever religion, whatever part of a religion, and whatever interpretation they have of that religion.
You could just say "God bless you," walk away, and pray that they're on the right track or make their way there.
This is pretty tough to reply to because I don't know who is who but I'll do my best in replying to everything said.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, I'm not a theologian so I can't give you all these answers but I can address what I know from personal learning, sermons, and experiences.
Comment 1) Let's see, going back to that same verse, Scripture doesn't manipulate people, it shows them the way that God would have for them to live and sometimes that's a change from the path that they are on so they think that they are being manipulated into something. Albeit, some PEOPLE try to use Scripture that way, but that's because of the people's error. Scripture is useful for teaching rebuking correcting and training, not manipulation. But some people use it as otherwise.
You're referring to 1 Timothy 2:12 here. I first must note, these were written by Paul to Timothy, not by Timothy himself. I, personally, have not wrestled with this passage enough to understand exactly what it means so I can't give you any explanation behind this verse, but what I do know is that, as with any part of Scripture, the context in which is was written in drastically influential and important in figuring out the author's ideas and motives behind writing something this blunt.
I would say no, it's not likely that Satan deceived the writers of the books of the Bible. One reason I would say is because simply put, the Bible makes sense as a whole. It was written over hundreds of years in many different continents by people who may have never met or heard of each other and it all ties together and wraps around one universal theme. That can't happen as merely coincidence. Go tell 20 of your friends to each write one part of a story with no background given. One person can write the beginning, one person can write the end and other people can fill in the other stuff. When you put it all together, it won't make sense.
Reading is by no means the most inefficient medium of sharing news. For one, when the first five books of the Bible were written, the Pentateuch, it was a "guide" and called the book of the Laws so people knew what to do. When something is in writing, it is harder to deny than something that is passed down by word of mouth. And the illiteracy of most of the population is the beauty of the Word as well. When Jesus was leaving earth, in Matthew 28:19-20 and Acts 1:8 He commissioned His disciples to go to the very ends of the earth and tell people. A written word can only do so much. It is up to the people of God to tell of the salvation message. Romans 10:17 says "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." But how can one hear without someone telling them? That's what evangelism's goal is. To bring the Word of Christ to those who have not heard it or who cannot read it themselves.
Why did He only reveal himself to one people, being Israel? Simply, I don't know. God has plans and knowledge far above ours and that's something that I don't know. What I do know is this, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord." (Isaiah 55:8) God's ways are not our ways, meaning, we can't understand the things that God does sometimes. But if we could understand everything about God, we wouldn't need Him, because we'd know just as much as He does.
Moving on to the second comment.
ReplyDelete"Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible."
Scripture tells us here and in other places, God is not the universe, He created the universe. More correctly, He spoke it into existence.
Also, it should be stated that I don't know much about the Hindu religion. You said that that has theological grounding, what is that grounding that you speak of?
As far as that hymn, I'm not familiar with it. Thinking of Isaiah 44:9-20, one could reason that it doesn't make sense to worship something that man's hands have created. If you create something, you are obviously better than itself, you're the more wise one, yet you worship something you made with your own hands. The same goes for humans. You and I were both created by something else. We were born not of our own doing, but by our parents, who were in turn also born by someone else's doing.
Comment 3) I can claim that she didn't know what she believed in because in our conversation, as I asked her what she believed, she actually didn't know. That's what I was referring to.
ReplyDeleteYour next statement, however, I would disagree with. Obedience doesn't follow in a set of "overstepping" as you say it. I didn't do any overstepping by being obedient to God. And I think obedience is exactly why one would speak of the dominance of one God when (as Scripture reveals) there only is one. Isaiah 44 also says "Thus says the LORD... I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god."
But yes, you are correct in saying that it is up to the person in believing what they believe. It is the same with anything. But if one person knows one thing to be true, they will stand firm to it and show someone else the truth.
As stated previously, saying a simple God bless you, would have been disobedient to the God I believe in. I care more about being obedient than being "socially acceptable" or fitting into what someone would deem "appropriate."
It should also be noted, that I did not include the whole of the conversation both for brevity's sake as well as because I can't remember every word spoken.
Once again, thanks for all the comments
Alright, I am anonymous #1. I've adopted a name so that you may communicate with us (well, at least me) more easily.
ReplyDeleteScripture itself may not be manipulating- in and of itself- but it has historically been used to manipulate people like that's what it was intended for. Under the tenure of scripture, churches grew as businesses, crusades and wars of conquest were wage, continents were conquered, and horrors carried out. People have used it that way, yes. Using it manipulatively has been effective. Therefore, scripture is useful for manipulation.
If the scripture is, in fact God breathed, shouldn't the author's motives and opinions be irrelevant? If the Bible is the word of God, then that passage, too, must be from the mind of the Lord. Am I right, or am I missing something?
But Satan is a clever demon, isn't he? How do we not know that Satan deceived man, claiming to be the Holy Spirit, in order to lead us to worship wrongly? Why is that any less likely than God delivering the message?
Your claim that the Bible fully makes sense is also puzzling. According to descriptions given in the Book, the world is flat (Isaiah, 40:22; Matthew, 4:8). Jesus last words change from disciple to disciple. Countless times, different books give different numbers, motivations, and people as they relate to events. In fact, God and the Devil are even confused on one occasion; In 2 Samuel 24:1, God incites David to take a census of Israel and Judah. In 1 Chronicles 21:1, Satan pushes him to do so. This only scratches the surface.
According to Dictionary.com, efficiency is:
"accomplishment of or ability to accomplish a job with a minimum expenditure of time and effort." In a world where communication moved the speed of horse, at best, and this message would have to be spread by word of mouth to the illiterate masses, how can you possibly call it efficient? Wouldn't God revealing himself to man have been far better? Surely, in His infinite might, he could let all people know that God is mighty without the need of parchment and pen. And did the disciples truly go to the ends of the Earth? Africa didn't receive the word in large part for over a thousand years after the death of Christ and his original disciples. In China, Oceania, the Americas, and beyond, God 'left the world hanging' and allowed them to continue to live without Him.
Also, your last line in post #1 makes it sound as though knowledge is the sole reason for pursuing God. So, if one could know all, then he would not need God?
There is a major fallacy involved with trying to use scripture from one faith to discredit another faith. While the Christian perspective shows God speaking the world and universe, the Hindu perspective portrays God becoming that universe. In Hinduism, God did so because he was lonely, and needed company and amusement. For you to outright say "God is not the universe," you instantly write off one of the great faiths of this planet.
ReplyDeleteWhat is the theological backing for Hinduism? Well, there's the Vedas, the Upanishads, the Puranas, and more. They have scripture, too, you see. In fact, all faiths do. My question for you is how can one say 'my beliefs are wrong according to my scriptures, which are clearly superior to your beliefs and your scriptures'?
And finally, that seems to reject the relatively simple notion of symbolism. A idol is made to worship a deity- not to be a deity itself. They are simply sacred symbols; much as many Christians pray before a cross in a submissive posture, many adherents of other faiths pray before statues of gods and spirits. Therefore, the statues themselves aren't being worshiped, per sae- what they represent, however, is what is revered.
I don't follow the interjection of parents into the equation. If a man who is lame of mind, has never left his own village, and has no profound beliefs has a son who travels, becomes learned, and devotes himself to the questions of the universe, who can be said to be more wise? It is not a given that one generation possesses a wisdom inferior to its predecessor.
Orin,
ReplyDeleteThis must of been tough replying to all these comments. Keep fighting the good fight. Remember what John 10:27 says: "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me."
TruthSeeker,
ReplyDeleteMy apologies for not replying to all these questions sooner. I had a crazy awesome busy week.
I see your point there, but what I'm saying is that, while that may have been true in the history of the church, it is not Scripture's intent. That's human error in divine matters.
God breathed means to be God inspired. As I said, I'm not the expert on these matters as well. So yes, I'm sure you're missing something there. But so am I.
I'm not sure how either of those verses say that world is flat to be honest, so I don't catch your point there.
Knowledge is not the sole purpose for seeking God. The purpose of seeking God would have to be having the knowledge that you DON'T know everything and trusting that the Lord Almighty does and being dependent on Him because He is faithful.
I see that saying God is not the universe would be discrediting the Hindu faith, but that is what Christians would be led to say if they really believed it. If Christians believe that Jesus is the only way, then other faith systems would have to write off other faiths that claim to accomplish the same purpose.
Scriptures authority is proven in many different ways. Not all of them I know but one of them I have learned is in the history of canonical Scripture, it has stood the test of time for longer than any other book or "scripture" of any religion. I can't give you the exact number but I know that the Bible has had more of the original manuscripts kept in tact than any historical books on topics of faith as well as philosophy books by Socrates and other philosophers and writers from days of old.
Also, because of Jesus. The reason that I believe that the Scripture in which Christians put their faith could be said to be true above others is because of Jesus being involved. All other "religions" believe in a deity or a prophet that has come and has died and has stayed dead but Jesus came to the earth, died for the sins of men, and then rose again, and is still reigning in Heaven. I believe in someone who is still alive and active in the world and in individuals lives and for me, that's enough proof to listen to what He has to say in His Word and in my life.
I see your point, and it's a good point. My only response to the symbolism is that a cross points not directly to a god but serves to prompt a remembrance of Jesus crucified on the cross. "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." Simply put, the cross doesn't make sense from a logical standpoint. It doesn't make sense that the God of the universe, who breathed stars into existence would humble Himself to be born in a manger and then grow up to be humiliated even to death on a cross by the very same people whom He created who spit in His face (in a figurative sense) and taint His name. God becoming man to die for the sins of men is foolishness. But it still happened because of His great love for us.
Yes, he would be said to be more wise, but he still would have been born of that lame minded man. The wise young man's life would still be a result of the lame minded man.
(Continued)
ReplyDeleteI see that you have a lot of questions and I understand that, but I cannot answer them all. What I can say is this: there comes a time in our pursuit of knowledge and understanding in which we must realize that we are not God, His ways are not our ways, we can't understand all His ways, and we must just make the decision to believe or to not believe in His love and the cross. Faith. Ephesians 2:8-9 says, "For it is grace we have been saved through faith, and this is not of yourself, it is the gift of God so that no one can boast." We are saved by faith alone. Not in understanding. So we can either constantly question God knowing we can never understand all, or we can submit to what He's revealed. Not blindly, however, but in a way of saying "Okay God, I know I can't understand you completely, but I want to do my best to understand what it is that you're about so I can know what you would have me to do."
My pastor has always said this and I agree with him. The two biggest questions you can ever have in your life are 1) Is there a God? and 2) If so, what does He want with me?
North,
ReplyDeleteThank you. I appreciate the encouragement
No worries.
ReplyDeleteNow, here I have a conundrum. If something is perfect and incorruptible, then how is it possible for man to corrupt it? True perfection is not breakable, especially by something as petty as man. And since it is purportedly God-inspired, that should make it all the more infallible.
The verse from Isaiah is a matter of geometry. If a tree, which grows essentially linearly, can have a canopy covering the whole of the earth, then it must be flat. If one can stand from atop a mountain and see everything on the earth, once again, geometry would dictate that it is flat. Horizon line, blah blah.
And as for God and the Devil being attributed the same things, I’m very deeply confused.
Why does faith necessitate dependence? He is faithful, so we must be dependent; so, if we were faithful, then all must be dependent on us? It seems a bit non sequitur.
My issue isn’t with you saying something to the contrary. It’s more the disrespectful, absolute way in which you do it.
And you seem to be heavily misinformed on basically every other religion other than Christianity. In the spirit of Max Müller, who wrote that “he who knows one knows none,” let me say a few things:
Not all other faith systems claim lead to the same thing. While Christianity’s ultimate vision is to live in heaven, the Buddhist version of the final reality is an escape and conjunction with all of the universe. Sure, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam have the feature of heaven in common- not nearly a majority of religions do.
Nothing in the Bible can be said to be the oldest of all scriptures. Jews have the Torah (which granted is IN the Bible), and the Talmud (which is not). Hindus have many scriptures older than the Old Testament. Native American faiths, along with African ones often have no vision of heaven, and out-age Christianity. Shinto has documented scripture dating back to well before anything seen in the Bible. I don’t see your point.
Your diminutive quotation marks around the word religion reeks of a certain ignorance paired with arrogance. Judaism has no such belief in a dead man or prophet or god. Hinduism, Shinto, and countless others have no such feature. I’d suggest you at least read about other faiths before making blanket statements like that.
I don’t understand your point. In a Catholic church, if you’ve ever seen one, images of Mary are worshipped in multiple corners of the building.
Any faith that asserts I should forgo reason and the pursuit of understanding for blind faith is clearly not for me. In that regard, you’ve helped me immensely. If a decision as big as eternity is on the line, encouraging people to make an uninformed decision almost seems insulting.
To TruthSeeker:
ReplyDeleteI don't know if this makes sense, I am just a common man. Please accept these words.
If God created us and forced us to worship him, what would he gain? Power? He already has that. Fame? He already has that, even non-believers talk about him all the time.
When you wrote: If something is perfect and incorruptible, then how is it possible for man to corrupt it?
I would have to respond in this way. Free will.
First of all we live in a place that is dying. Look around you. Everyone and everything is dying. One time man lived in a place that was incorruptible. That place is still perfect. Man is the corrupted item. God is still perfect, we are fallen. Our free will is what has corrupted us. We chose sin. We chose sin over God's word. We chose sin over life. God sent Jesus into this corrupted world to rescue us from our sin. Only perfection can bring perfection.
I have tested other ways of life and I have not found a truth that is as pure and great as what I have found in Jesus. I am a Christian, and the ultimate goal or "reward" is not heaven. It is eternal life.
To Orin: Thanks for letting me comment here even though we don't even know each other.